ngjm95

Bonjour Dong Phong,
@Dông Phong 144212 wrote:

Bonjour TLM,
J’ai ouvert ce fil de discussion pour informer le Forum de la parution d’un nouveau livre qui traite de l’histoire d’une époque révolue du Viêt Nam. C’est ce que je crois bien faire habituellement quand je poste des informations concernant notre pays.
Un traité d’histoire rédigé par un chercheur universitaire n’est pas un manifeste d’une quelconque idéologie. Et François Guillemot, chercheur universitaire respecté de ses pairs, n’a fait que son travail de chercheur.
Je suis vraiment désolé que mon fil de discussion a provoqué des réponses, dont certaines sont pleines d' »inepties » (pour reprendre le terme utilisé par un forumeur) de la part de personnes qui n’ont même pas pris la peine de lire le livre de François Guillemot avant d’en donner leur avis.
Je demande donc instamment aux Modos de bien vouloir fermer cette discussion qui ne mène à rien, autrement qu’à raviver des blessures dont nous souffrons tous.
Je ne sais pas si je suis encore disposé à informer le Forum des nouvelles publications sur notre pays.
J’en suis désolé.
Cordialement.
Dông Phong

Pour discuter du Dai Viet ,j’étais obligé d’aller à la pêche aux renseignements sur Wikipédia. Et là j’ai réalisé que le Dai Viet n’avait pas disparu dans les années 50 et qu’il était bien présent durant toute l’existence de la république du sud VN. J’ai démontré que tous les généraux au pouvoir faisaient partie du Dai Viet et que les multiples coups d’état n’étaient motivés que par le désir de démonter tous ceux qui sont coupables de contact avec la majorité bouddhique qui représentait quand même 90% de la population.
Ma démonstration était étayée par des liens renvoyant à des chroniqueurs de la vie politique du Sud . Le pouvoir civil présentait le même profil que celui des militaires.
J’ai beaucoup appris sur l’histoire de sud Vietnam et sur certains membres de ma famille. Rien que pour ça ,je vous en remercie.
Barrage hydraulique Dai Nhim (près de Dalat), Résidence Bao Dai, Fosse commune à Huê…

@HAN VIËT 144178 wrote:

.Le prétexte de l’anticommunisme est trop transparent , il ne faut pas tomber dans le piège de lui donner la moindre valeur .Le peuple VN a du s’adapter, il a utilisé les moyens qui lui venaient à la main selon les circonstances ; il a enfourché le cheval du communisme pour arriver à ses fins .

Selon la CIA Si les élections générales avaient eu lieu en 1956, le Viet-minh aurait remporté avec 80% de voix.
Le Sud ,c’était une dictature de droite composée surtout de la minorité catholique (10%).L’anti communisme servait à légitimiser la confiscation du pouvoir par la minorité.

PS :A quand les preuves des accusations d’atrocités commises après 1975 ?

@tôidibo 144148 wrote:

Page 106 du guide du routard 2011. La partie historique de ce guide me semble suffisamment travaillée pour qu’on la considère comme fiable.

Le guide du routard comme référence politique , pourquoi pas ! :bigsmile:. D’habitude je le consulte pour mes voyages sans plus.Il serait judicieux de scanner cette partie historique et de la poster car le Guide du Routard n’a pas la réputation d’être un chroniqueur politique .

Donc cette demande de rançon a-t-elle été suivie d’une adresse avec nom du bénéficiaire ? Car il fallait bien la remettre à quelqu’un.Cette pratique était -elle très répandue pour qu’elle pût être attribuée à un parti politique ?

Quant à moi je vous offre ce document de la librairie du congrès Américain.

Vietnam after 1975 Vietnam after 1975

The sudden collapse of Saigon in April 1975 set the stage for a new and uncertain chapter in the evolution of Vietnamese society. The Hanoi government had to confront directly what communists have long called the struggle between the two paths of socialism and capitalism. At issue was Hanoi’s ability to translate its wartime success and socialist revolutionary experience into postwar rehabilitation and reconstruction, now that it controlled the South territorially.
Foremost among the regime’s imperatives was that of restoring order and stability to the war-torn South. The critical question, however, was whether or not the northern conquerors could inspire the southern population to embrace communism. Initially, Hanoi appeared sanguine; the two zones had more similarities than dissimilarities, and the dissimilarities were expected to be eliminated as the South caught up with the North in socialist organization.
The December 1975 Vietnam Courier, an official government publication, portrayed Vietnam as two distinct, incongruent societies. The South was reported to continue to suffer from what communists consider the neo-colonialist influences and feudal ideology of the United States, while the North was considered to serve as a progressive environment for growing numbers of a new kind of socialist human being, imbued with patriotism, proletarian internationalism, and socialist virtues. The class of social exploiter had been eliminated in the North, leaving the classes of workers collectivized peasant, and socialist intellectual, the last consisting of various groups. In contrast, the South was divided into a working class, peasantry, petit bourgeois, capitalist–or comprador–class, and the remnant of a feudal landlord class.
In September 1976, Premier Pham Van Dong declared that his compatriots, North and South, were « translating the revolutionary heroism they [had] displayed in fighting into creative labor in the acquisition of wealth and strength. » In the South particularly, the old society was undergoing active changes as the result of « stirring revolutionary movements » by the workers, peasants, youth, women, intellectuals, and other groups. In agriculture alone, « millions of people » participated in bringing hundreds of thousands more hectares under cultivation and in building or dredging thousands of kilometers of canals and ditches.
From all indications, however, these changes occurred more through coercion than volition. In Dong’s own words, the party had initiated « various policies aimed at eliminating the comprador capitalists as a class and doing away with all vestiges of feudal exploitation. » These policies radically realigned the power elite so that the ruling machine was controlled collectively by the putative vanguard of the working class–the party–and by the senior cadres of the party who were mostly from the North.

In its quest for a new socialist order in the South, Hanoi relied on other techniques apart from socialist economic transformation and socialist education. These included thought reform, population resettlement, and internal exile, as well as surveillance and mass mobilization. Party-sponsored « study sessions » were obligatory for all adults. For the former elite of the Saigon regime, a more rigorous form of indoctrination was used; hundreds of thousands of former military officers, bureaucrats, politicians, religious and labor leaders, scholars, intellectuals, and lawyers, as well as critics of the new regime were ordered to « reeducation camps » for varying periods. In mid1985 , the Hanoi government conceded that it still held about 10,000 inmates in the reeducation camps, but the actual number was believed to be at least 40,000. In 1982 there were about 120,000 Vietnamese in these camps. According to a knowledgeable American observer, the inmates faced hard labor, but only rarely torture or execution.

Population resettlement or redistribution, although heralded on economic grounds, turned out to be another instrument of social control in disguise. It was a means of defusing tensions in congested cities, which were burdened with unemployed and socially dislocated people even after most of the rural refugees had been repatriated to their native villages. These refugees had swelled the urban population to 45 percent of the southern total in 1975 (up from 33 percent in 1970). The authorities sought to address the problem of urban congestion by relocating many of the metropolitan jobless in the new economic zones hastily set up in virgin lands, often malaria-infested jungles, as part of a broader effort to boost agricultural output. In 1975 and 1976 alone, more than 600,000 people were moved from Ho Chi Minh City to these zones, in most instances, reportedly, against their will. Because of the barely tolerable living conditions in the new settlements, a considerable number of people escaped or bribed their way back to the city. The new economic zones came to be widely perceived as places of internal exile. In fact, the authorities were said to have used the threat of exile to such places against those who refused to obey party instructions or to participate in the activities of the mass organizations.
Surveillance was a familiar tool of the regime, which was bent on purging all class enemies. Counterrevolutionaries, real and suspected, were summarily interned in reform camps or forced labor camps that were set up separately from the new economic zones in several border areas and other undeveloped regions.

The Hanoi government has claimed that not a single political execution took place in the South after 1975, even in cases of grave war crimes. Generally, the foreign press corroborated this claim by reporting in 1975 that there seemed to be no overt indication of the blood bath that many Western observers had predicted would occur in the wake of the communist takeover. Some Western observers, however, have estimated that as many as 65,000 South Vietnamese may have been executed.
In March 1982, the Vietnamese Communist Party (VCP) convened its Fifth National Party Congress to assess its achievements since 1976 and to outline its major tasks for the 1980s. The congress was revealing if only because of its somber admission that revolutionary optimism was no substitute for common sense. Despite rigid social controls and mass mobilization, the party fell far short of its original expectations for socialist transition. According to the party’s assessment, from 1976 through 1980 shortcomings and errors occurred in establishing transition goals and in implementing the party line.

The congress, however, reaffirmed the correctness of the party line concerning socialist transition, and directed that it be implemented with due allowances for different regional circumstances. The task was admittedly formidable. In a realistic appraisal of the regime’s difficulties, Nhan Dan, the party’s daily organ, warned in June 1982 that the crux of the problem lay in the regime itself, the shortcomings of which included lack of party discipline and corruption of party and state functionaries.
In 1987 the goal of establishing a new society remained elusive, and Vietnam languished in the first stage of the party’s planned period of transition to socialism. Mai Chi Tho, mayor of Ho Chi Minh City and deputy head of its party branch, had told visiting Western reporters as early as April 1985 that socialist transition, as officially envisioned, would probably continue until the year 2000.
In the estimation of the party, Vietnamese society had succumbed to a new form of sociopolitical elitism that was just as undesirable as the much-condemned elitism of the old society. Landlords and comprador capitalists may have disappeared but in their places were party cadres and state functionaries who were no less status-conscious and self-seeking. The Sixth National Party Congress in December 1986 found it necessary to issue a stern warning against opportunism, individualism, personal gain, corruption, and a desire for special prerogatives and privileges. A report to the congress urged the party to intensify class struggle in order to combat the corrupt practices engaged in by those who had « lost their class consciousness. » Official efforts to purify the ranks of the working class, peasantry, and socialist intellectuals, however, failed to strike a responsive chord. In fact, the proceedings of the Sixth Congress left the inescapable impression that the regime was barely surviving the struggle between socialism and capitalism and that an early emergence of a communist class structure was unlikely.

As ideally envisioned, the socialist sector was expected to provide 70 percent of household income and the « household economy, » or the privately controlled resources of the home, was to make up the balance. In September 1986 cadres and workers were earning their living mainly through moonlighting and, according to a Vietnamese source, remained on « the state rolls only to preserve their political prestige and to receive some ration stamps and coupons. » The source further disclosed that the society’s lack of class consciousness was reflected in the party’s membership, among whom only about 10 percent were identified as from the working class.

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Source: U.S. Library of Congress

@tôidibo 144092 wrote:

Par exemple la résistance française n’a jamais enlevé personne et envoyé un clou à la famille : ou vous payez une rançon, ou on plante le clou dans l’oreille.

Il serait bien d’appuyer ses accusations avec des liens auprès des médias ou de Wikipédia. Merci

Il faudrait mettre d’urgence en service les balises gps qui permettent de localiser en permanence les pêcheurs et de lancer des SOS.